Psikologi Transformatif: Re: Bls: [psikologi_transformatif] The Skeptic John Powell Meets the Mystic Jiddu Krishnamurti

JS: Bill Gates, M Junus, Norman Bourlaugh, yang
menuju tahapa seperti 'Budha' : Dia memberikan semua milik,
keahliannya untuk menjaga dunia, bukan seperti puncak hirarkhi
A.Maslow yang mencari pengakuan recoqnation.

GG: Dalam hal puncak kebutuhan manusia, maslow benar mengatakan self
actualization - aktualisasi diri sebagai puncak kebutuhan manusia,
namun sebenarnya jalan menuju self actualization itu gak bisa
melalui tahap-tahap yang dibilang maslow,

bisa dikatakan bahwa maslow kurang bisa menjelaskan mengapa manusia
bisa menuju self actualization?

logikanya, orang yang sudah kenyang [fisiologis], sudah kaya
[security] sudah dicintai [love], sudah dihormati, sudah hebat,
sudah diakui, semuanya menuju ke self actualization?

kenyataan yang sudahkenyang [fisiologis], sudah kaya [security]
sudah dicintai [love], sudah dihormati, sudah hebat, sudah diakui,
semuanya kawin lagi.

salam,
goen

--- In psikologi_transformatif@yahoogroups.com, "wolikertajiwa"
<wolikertajiwa@...> wrote:
>
> Jusuf Sutanto tentang Bill Gates, M Junus, Norman Bourlaugh, yang
> menuju tahapa seperti 'Budha' : Dia memberikan semua milik,
> keahliannya untuk menjaga dunia, bukan seperti puncak hirarkhi
> A.Maslow yang mencari pengakuan recoqnation.
>
> WK :
> Pak Jusuf emangnya pernah 'disakiti' Maslow ya ? koq Maslow
> disalahin melulu sih ....
> Puncak hirarki kebutuhan manusia menurut Maslow adalah Self
> Actualization (bukan Recognition !) Coba lihat url berikut :
> http://www.accel-team.com/maslow_/maslow_nds_02.html
> Ya, self-actualization adalah penemuan Diri Sejati (whatever we
call
> it), yang salah satu cirinya adalah :
> "People who are self actualized have had peak experiences. Peak
> experiences are situations that are so intense that the person
loses
> all sense of self and they find themselves in the flow of the
event.
> These are often religious or mystical experiences."
> Coba klin url : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_actualization
> Dan aktualisasi diri tidak bertentangan dengan altruisme, lihat
url
> berikut :
> http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=42654
>
> Saya bukan saudaranya Maslow, bukan juga pencinta fanatik Maslow,
> cuma saya tahu sekedarnya perihal Maslow.
>
> WK
>
> --- In psikologi_transformatif@yahoogroups.com, Jusuf Sutanto
> <jusuf_sw@> wrote:
> >
> > Di buku Kearifan Timur dalam Etos Kerja dan Seni Memimpin, anda
> akan mendapatkan bahwa Siddharta Gautama sebagai pelopor era
> Ikhtiar, seorang pengeran yang meninggalkan istana untuk mencari
> jawaban : mengapa dunia menjadi lautan penderitaan karena menjadi
> tua - sakit dan mati adalah penderitaan. Setelah melalui jalan
> intelektualism dan ascetism, belum juga mencapai pencerahan, lalu
> kembali hidup normal dan setelah bermeditasi akhirnya mencapai
> pencerahan. Ini dikatakan Jalan Tengah / Middle Road.
> > Buddha adalah manusia sempurna - manusia sempurna adalah Buddha.
> > Setelah mencapai pencerahan, lukisan mengenai Dia selalu diserta
> aura.
> >
> > 1000 tahun kemudian datang Bodhidharma ke Tiongkok, dan
lukisannya
> sama sekali tidak pakai aura.
> > Muridnya yang pertama adalah manusia biasa (bukan berpendidikan,
> aristokrat) yang saking hausnya pada pencerahan, akhirnya
sampai
> memotong lengannya untuk menunjukkan kesungguhannya pada
> Bodhidharma.
> > Terjadilah loncatan era Ikhitiar dari semula diawali oleh darah
> biru, kini menjadi orang biasa.
> > Kesimpulannya pencerahan bisa dicapai oleh setiap orang melalui
> pendidikan (digambarkan sebagai kerbau dengan kepala putih) dan
> latihan terus menerus pada gambar berikutnya sehingga seluruh
tubuh
> kerbau menjadi putih dan gembalanya bisa tidur nyenyak membiarkan
si
> kerbau merumput seperti dilukiskan dalam 6 tahap melatih kerbau.
> > Orang seperti Bill Gates, Muhammad Yunus, Norman Bourlaugh
sedang
> dalam tahap menuju ke arah ini.
> > Dia memberikan semua milik, keahliannya untuk menjaga dunia,
bukan
> seperti puncak hirarkhi A.Maslow yang mencari pengakuan
recoqnation.
> >
> > ----- Pesan Asli ----
> > Dari: Insan Syukur <isyukur@>
> > Kepada: psikologi_transformatif@yahoogroups.com
> > Terkirim: Minggu, 11 November, 2007 7:19:02
> > Topik: [psikologi_transformatif] The Skeptic John Powell Meets
the
> Mystic Jiddu Krishnamurti
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The Skeptic John Powell Meets the Mystic Jiddu
> Krishnamurti
> >
> >
> >
> > John L. Waters
> >
> >
> >
> > February 26, 2002
> >
> >
> >
> > (c) Copyright 2001 by John L. Waters. All Rights
> >
> > Reserved
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------
> >
> >
> >
> > Professor John Powell,
> >
> > http://www.humboldt .edu/~jlw47/ jp022502. html
> >
> > Jiddu Krishnamurti claimed to sense what he called
> >
> > "the benediction" and many others felt a mystical
> >
> > presence in Jiddu Krishnamurti. Practicing trance
> >
> > mediums report seeing an intense golden aura around
> >
> > the physical body of a spiritual master or saint.
> >
> > Many people sensed a healing presence fill the room as
> >
> > Jiddu Krishnamurti entered. This article examines
> >
> > this subject in detail.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mystics or psychics who see a light or aura that many
> >
> > persons cannot ever see are sometimes attacked by
> >
> > skeptics who deny that any such light could possibly
> >
> > exist. How can this be? What is going on?
> >
> >
> >
> > Consider the problem of demonstrating that a talent
> >
> > and a sense exists to those who don't have the sense
> >
> > or the talent.
> >
> >
> >
> > The problem is demonstrating the sense or the talent
> >
> > to persons who simply don't have it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Consider the difficulty in proving to a deaf person
> >
> > that sounds truly exist. The person who has the
> >
> > ability to hear will have trouble proving to deaf
> >
> > people that there is a talent called hearing. How can
> >
> > the proof be carried out?
> >
> >
> >
> > Consider this. You can show a deaf person what
> >
> > vibration is by gently pressing an electric vibrator
> >
> > upon their skin. Say their hand or their chest. As
> >
> > they are feeling the vibration you can explain that
> >
> > sound is a vibration that the ears can feel something
> >
> > like your body feels the electric vibrator. The deaf
> >
> > person won't hear the buzzing of the vibrator but they
> >
> > will feel the vibration and they will see the vibrator
> >
> > moving back and forth.
> >
> >
> >
> > Assume the deaf person is able to see and also has
> >
> > muscle sense and can feel the vibrator through their
> >
> > muscles and bones.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now what about explaining to a blind person what light
> >
> > is? Again, we can use the vibrator. The blind person
> >
> > won't be able to see the vibrator but they will feel
> >
> > the vibration of it on their flesh and they will hear
> >
> > the buzzing of the vibrator in their ears.
> >
> >
> >
> > The blind person's ears and muscles sense the
> >
> > vibration. Furthermore, the blind person can hear the
> >
> > vibrator buzzing and sense the vibration in his body.
> >
> > The teacher can tell the blind person, "Your eyes
> >
> > sense vibration. A nervous connection is missing,
> >
> > though, so you can't see the vibrator. Neither can
> >
> > you see the vibrations of light."
> >
> >
> >
> > The problem of credibility enters. Why should the
> >
> > handicapped person believe the nonhandicapped teacher?
> >
> > By what process do congenitally blind people come to
> >
> > believe that light exists? By what process do
> >
> > congenitally deaf persons come to believe that sounds
> >
> > exist? Well, a little handicapped child trusts in
> >
> > what the adults say. The little child isn't such a
> >
> > doubter and skeptic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Another question: Do all blind people believe that
> >
> > light exists?
> >
> >
> >
> > Do all deaf people believe that sounds exist?
> >
> >
> >
> > Consider a skeptical blind person. Why would a blind
> >
> > person be skeptical? Well, the skeptical blind man
> >
> > would trust only what he himself senses. (Before he
> >
> > could believe light exists he would need to see the
> >
> > light repeatedly. He would never trust what another
> >
> > person told him about vision and visible energies.)
> >
> > This is why a skeptic would never accept the mystical
> >
> > sense of Jiddu Krishnamurti. When Krishnamurti
> >
> > describes what he calls "the other," "the immensity,"
> >
> > and "the benediction, " skeptics refuse to believe him
> >
> > because they just can't sense what he senses. They
> >
> > have lost all the trust that a little child has.
> >
> >
> >
> > Even so, a mystic can say to you that the mystical
> >
> > vibration is warm, bright, and soothing. It helps one
> >
> > relax and turn off the thought-engine. The mind stops
> >
> > plotting, planning, and thinking. If you are
> >
> > trusting, you can believe. If you aren't trusting,
> >
> > there are still ways of helping you to understand the
> >
> > mystical sense. Hear what Jiddu Krishnamurti himself
> >
> > has to say. This is a quote from page 82 of the book
> >
> > entitled "Krishnamurti to Himself:"
> >
> >
> >
> > "Meditation is a movement without any motive, without
> >
> > words and the activity of thought. It must be
> >
> > something that is not deliberately set about. Only
> >
> > then is meditation a movement in the infinite,
> >
> > measureless to man, without a goal, without an end and
> >
> > without a beginning."
> >
> >
> >
> > As Krishnamurti goes into deep meditation, he senses
> >
> > "the other" and he moves his body in different ways,
> >
> > serenely, without any ulterior motive, without a plan
> >
> > or an idea in his head. A sensitive person feels the
> >
> > mystical energy emanating from Jiddu Krishnamurti and
> >
> > senses that he is holy. But most people don't have
> >
> > enough sensitivity to feel this aspect of
> >
> > Krishnamurti. They just can't sense his aura or see
> >
> > the light coming from him. These people are rather
> >
> > like deaf people or blind people, yet they don't have
> >
> > the trust most deaf or blind people have. The deaf
> >
> > people trust other people when they say sounds are
> >
> > real. The blind people trust other people when they
> >
> > say colors and light are real. But the skeptics who
> >
> > can't sense the aura of a holy person refuse to trust
> >
> > other people who do sense in this way. One really
> >
> > wonders why the skeptics are so skeptical.
> >
> >
> >
> > By collecting many reports of the mystical sense of
> >
> > Krishnamurti together, the open-minded person amasses
> >
> > evidence that the mystical sense is real. For
> >
> > example, in his book entitled "Cosmic Consciousness"
> >
> > Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke presents reports of or by
> >
> > forty-nine adults whom he believed attained the
> >
> > mystical state of cosmic consciousness. Furthermore,
> >
> > the modern scientist Sir Alister Hardy F.R.S. created
> >
> > a book entitled "The Spiritual Nature of Man" in which
> >
> > he presented over four hundred anecdotal reports by
> >
> > persons who had a mystical experience or an uncanny
> >
> > experience of some rather similar kind.
> >
> >
> >
> > Despite all these anecdotal preports, a skeptic can
> >
> > say, "There is just belief on the basis of desire"
> >
> > because the pioneer psychologist Sigmund Freud said
> >
> > this and it seems to be true enough, in many cases.
> >
> >
> >
> > There's a problem though, for how does just belief on
> >
> > the basis of desire enable an insomniac to turn off
> >
> > his or her thinking mind and go to sleep? Belief on
> >
> > the basis of desire doesn't make a person into a
> >
> > meditator. There's more to meditation than just
> >
> > wanting to be free of the demons that keep one on
> >
> > edge, tossing and turning under the blankets and
> >
> > totally unable to go to sleep. There's a lot more to
> >
> > becoming a saint tham wishful thinking and vain
> >
> > belief.
> >
> >
> >
> > Skeptics doubt that the empty mind of the meditator
> >
> > and the special sense of Krishnamurti and other
> >
> > mystics is a valid sense. Indeed, the skeptics call
> >
> > this perception of strange lights and other eerie
> >
> > sensations a delusion, or an hallucination. Why? On
> >
> > what basis? Well, they say that it's just not a
> >
> > normal perception. Moreover, they say it's associated
> >
> > with atypical behavior, sometimes even dangerous
> >
> > insanity. The skeptics insist that the person who
> >
> > sees lights that other people don't see is a
> >
> > psychotic. That's like deaf people giving sighted
> >
> > people a nasty name, and it suggests that the skeptics
> >
> > are jealous. Maybe they are just believing on the
> >
> > basis of their own desire. How do the skeptics prove
> >
> > this is not the case?
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. The skeptics have never sensed what Krishnamurti
> >
> > calls "the other" or if they sensed it once they were
> >
> > like Scrooge and they snorted "Bah. Humbug!" and they
> >
> > called it a distortion and they blamed it on a trick
> >
> > of sense or on an "underdone potato" or some kind of
> >
> > poisoning. They said it must be an illness. They
> >
> > treated it as evidence of insanity. Where is the
> >
> > skeptics' proof that they are right? Why should we,
> >
> > the naive ang gullible innocents, believe what the
> >
> > skeptics say?
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. Most people are skeptical of this extra sense.
> >
> > They just don't have the talent and the sense or they
> >
> > never developed it, and so they doubt that it is real.
> >
> > In fact some skeptics really get upset at the idea
> >
> > that what a mystic senses is real.
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. Scientists dressed in their white coats like holy
> >
> > men dressed in white robes have sanctioned ways of
> >
> > removing this sense from insane people. In fact, if
> >
> > Jiddu Krishnamurti hadn't been venerated as a holy
> >
> > man, he would have been feared as a psychotic. Maybe
> >
> > he just compensated very well for his handicap and was
> >
> > wise despite his illness? Well, let's examine each of
> >
> > these ideas.
> >
> >
> >
> > A. Like Ebeneezer Scrooge suggested he was seeing the
> >
> > ghost of Jacob Marley because the rich miser ate a
> >
> > piece of underdone potato, the skeptics will say that
> >
> > the mystic is just being poisoned... maybe poisoned by
> >
> > the body itself, or by physiological changes inside
> >
> > the brain. The doctors give the mystic some medicine
> >
> > that drastically alters brain activity. This
> >
> > medication is called a cure for insanity.
> >
> >
> >
> > The assumption is that what meditators sense is bad.
> >
> > The doctors assume that it's good to always be using
> >
> > the rational retentive cognitive style (RRCS) and
> >
> > planning every move and thinking ahead. The doctors
> >
> > say that intuition is bad, or at least inferior to
> >
> > conscious calculation and cogitation The doctors
> >
> > and the skeptics would never trust their intuitions.
> >
> > They would insist on having clearly defined reasons to
> >
> > do something. Maybe it's because the doctors and the
> >
> > skeptics just never had the sense and the talent of a
> >
> > very intuitive person, or they suppressed their own
> >
> > intuition to do well in school and get ahead in the
> >
> > stiff, competive academic world.
> >
> >
> >
> > B. If most people are skeptical, it's because they
> >
> > don't sense this "other" and they are social. They
> >
> > focus upon thinking and talking, reading and
> >
> > listening. They don't want to withdraw for hours and
> >
> > go into deep meditation. They have the social
> >
> > instinct. They tend to believe a person is mentally
> >
> > ill if he or she spends a lot of time alone. Their
> >
> > socially conditioned bias is showing. In a different
> >
> > culture, however, meditators could be respected
> >
> > persons. Our culture just favors reasoned arguments
> >
> > and conversation.
> >
> >
> >
> > C. Examine the assumptions of the psychologists and
> >
> > psychiatrists. They were raised on Freud and the
> >
> > teachings of other determined skeptics. They were
> >
> > trained in the university where RRCS is the ONE WAY to
> >
> > excel...and prove yourself competent. As advisors to
> >
> > educators they sanction the partial mind-blinding of
> >
> > schoolchildren. I say. Does this remind you of
> >
> > William Blake, and his poem, "Holy Thursday?"
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay. The main issue here is that unlike the deaf
> >
> > children and the blind children who trust in their
> >
> > teacher and caregiver, the hard skeptics who don't
> >
> > sense the subjective light and just don't believe in
> >
> > the subjective light of Jiddu Krishnamurti and other
> >
> > mystics are determined not to trust in what Jiddu
> >
> > Krishnamurti says, and in what other mystics say.
> >
> > Like John Powell, whom in this article we shall
> >
> > consider the consummate skeptical philosopher, they,
> >
> > like John Powell, are all from the state of Missouri,
> >
> > the "show me" state. And so I am prepared to show
> >
> > John Powell and the other skeptics what Krishnamurti
> >
> > was talking about.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you go to my website Prophets
> >
> > and Prophecies and read my article on AUM art,
> >
> > you will see a different way of expressing what
> >
> > Krishnamurti said in his preceding quote on
> >
> > meditation. Here is part of that quote again:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Meditation is a movement without any motive, without
> >
> > words and the activity of thought. It must be
> >
> > something that is not deliberately set about...without
> >
> > an end and without a beginning."
> >
> >
> >
> > Now consider this. While he is in meditation a man
> >
> > produces drawings which don't suggest any name or
> >
> > word. Furthermore, after the drawing is done you
> >
> > can't tell where the man first set the pen to paper
> >
> > and where he lifted it off the paper. The process of
> >
> > meditation so filled his body and brain that as he
> >
> > continues drawing you can see a picture of that very
> >
> > movement that Krishnamurti is talking about. The
> >
> > artist himself is demonstrating this state of activity
> >
> > for you, right before your eyes.
> >
> >
> >
> > As you urge the artist-meditator to argue with you and
> >
> > prove to you that he is a good debater and arguer, you
> >
> > are urging him to forsake the sense of blessedness and
> >
> > benediction he feels which comes by means of his
> >
> > special sense and his special talent, and adjust to
> >
> > your special sense and talent. You admit you worry a
> >
> > lot about philosophical issues. You want the blessed
> >
> > meditator to come down to your own level and worry
> >
> > along with you. Is this fair? If the meditator is
> >
> > going to struggle and reform his brain activity to
> >
> > suit your needs, your training, and your
> >
> > expectations, can you admit that this will take the
> >
> > man a bit of time and effort, and during that time he
> >
> > won't be able to work his brain as much in the other
> >
> > way, which Jiddu Krishnamurti was encouraged to work
> >
> > his brain? After all, Krishnamurti was revered as a
> >
> > holy man. But you don't want to believe there is any
> >
> > such thing as a holy man. Is this correct or is there
> >
> > something I don't yet understand about your
> >
> > skepticism? You talk about Freud and William James,
> >
> > but the blessed person sees that each one of these
> >
> > persons is like a deaf child who refuses to believe
> >
> > that sound exists. Each one of them is like a blind
> >
> > child who has no trust in the parent or educator who
> >
> > is explaining what light is and what seeing is like.
> >
> > But the vibrations from a holy person are felt as
> >
> > vibrations by the person who has the sense and the
> >
> > talent to feel these vibrations. If you don't have
> >
> > this sense and this talent, well, why must you insist
> >
> > that there is no such thing as a holy light or a
> >
> > subjective light? Could that just be a sour grapes
> >
> > attitude? How do you prove the skeptical person isn't
> >
> > just demonstrating a sour grapes attitude?
> >
> >
> >
> > What you want, of course, is some hard evidence, or
> >
> > some clear argument that is convincing. Jiddu
> >
> > Krishnamurti has given us a clear definition of what
> >
> > meditation IS, and the AUM artist gives you a
> >
> > demonstration of the movements about which
> >
> > Krishnamurti speaks in his quote. If you can't sense
> >
> > the holy light that comes through the AUM artist as he
> >
> > is meditating and drawing figures right in front of
> >
> > your eyes, well, that doesn't mean the holy light
> >
> > doesn't exist. It just suggests that you never
> >
> > developed the sense and the talent in yourself.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now if you are weak in intuition, you don't know what
> >
> > to believe. You don't sense the holy light, and you
> >
> > know that young children trust in their parents and
> >
> > their teachers, so a blind child and a deaf child will
> >
> > trust and believe that there is light and sound. So,
> >
> > too, a young child will trust the parent or the
> >
> > educator who tells them about the holy light.
> >
> > Moreover, some of the children will sense the holy
> >
> > light in certain eerie places and in certain eerie
> >
> > persons. But what does it mean to be feeling eerie?
> >
> > That's just a funny word that doesn't get used a lot
> >
> > nowadays.
> >
> >
> >
> > We know that a little child will believe things which
> >
> > aren't really true. Like Santa Claus doesn't really
> >
> > come down the chimney with lots of toys in a large
> >
> > sack. If one child says he or she sees an eerie light
> >
> > in a certain person, why doesn't that child see the
> >
> > same light in other persons? Moreover, if out of two
> >
> > hundred children five children see an eerie light in a
> >
> > given person but not in other persons, is that just
> >
> > chance? And if the AUM artist can take ten persons
> >
> > and give them a method for seeing lights they didn't
> >
> > see before, and they all report seeing these lights
> >
> > even though they didn't know what to expect, is that
> >
> > just due to chance? The AUM artist has done these
> >
> > things. This isn't made-up fantasy.
> >
> >
> >
> > The idea of Freud that "We believe on the basis of
> >
> > desire rather than on the basis of argument or
> >
> > evidence," can help us understand why some skeptics
> >
> > are so adamant in their insistence that there is no
> >
> > such thing as a "holy" light or a "subjective" light
> >
> > as Dr. R.M. Bucke called it. The skeptics are failing
> >
> > to sense a part of reality, but they don't want to
> >
> > admit this. Of course there are lots of deaf people
> >
> > and there are lots of blind people. But in our
> >
> > culture, a man doesn't want to think of himself as
> >
> > handicapped or disabled. If there is an "extra" sense
> >
> > that many children don't have or they just outgrow it
> >
> > at a rather young age, if this sense isn't essential
> >
> > for being a good hunter and warrior, then natural
> >
> > selection isn't going to eliminate those who don't
> >
> > have the sense. Millennia will come and go, and some
> >
> > people will have the sense of the holy presence and
> >
> > many will not. Furthermore, one can see that the
> >
> > sense of a light that isn't physical can be a
> >
> > distraction to man who needs to focus on the physical
> >
> > reality to succeed on the hunt and in battle. So
> >
> > there is a certain amount of selection pressure
> >
> > against this talent and this sense. Even so, the
> >
> > sensitivity is still present in the human race. Some
> >
> > persons will be unusually sensitive to this
> >
> > environmental input.
> >
> >
> >
> > 11:05PM Saturday, February 23, 2002
> >
> >
> >
> > 8:40PM Monday, February 25, 2002
> >
> >
> >
> > John L. Waters
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> >
> >
> >
> > The information on this page represents that of John Waters and
not
> >
> > necessarily that of Humboldt State University. John Waters takes
> full
> >
> > responsibility for the information presented.
> >
> >
> >
> > This page is maintained by: John Waters
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________
> > Bergabunglah dengan orang-orang yang berwawasan, di di bidang
> Anda! Kunjungi Yahoo! Answers saat ini juga di
> http://id.answers.yahoo.com/
> >
>